T minus 20
The year is 2004... Your polyphonic ringtone habit is sending you broke. George W Bush is sworn in for a second term. And in spite of everything going on, the most controversial thing is a wardrobe malfunction at the superbowl?
T minus 20, rewind to this week in history 20 years ago with Joe and Mel.
T minus 20
The fallout from Fallujah - warfare goes virtual
This week is loaded with high-stakes showdowns, culture-defining beats, and innovations that reshaped our digital lives.
We begin in Fallujah, Iraq, where the brutal Second Battle of Fallujah—aka Operation Phantom Fury—gripped international attention. Coalition forces faced intense resistance in a city that had become a fortified insurgent hub, leading to one of the bloodiest battles of the Iraq War. But this wasn’t just history; it’s also the story behind the controversial game Six Days in Fallujah. Reviving real-life conflict as a video game sparked huge debates about militarism in gaming—some called it a recruitment tool, while others argued for its realism in capturing war’s harsh realities. 💥🎮
On the tech front, Mozilla dropped Firefox 1.0, finally giving Internet Explorer a run for its money! This nimble, open-source browser brought new standards for privacy and customization, taking us into a new era of choice and control online. Flash forward, and it’s amazing to see Firefox’s roots in a world where data privacy is at the forefront of online life. 🌍🔒
In music Snoop Dogg scored his first Billboard Hot 100 #1 with “Drop it Like It’s Hot,” a minimalist masterpiece produced by Pharrell that rewrote the rules for hip-hop’s sound and catapulted Snoop into his household-name era. Meanwhile, Britney Spears unveiled Greatest Hits: My Prerogative, showcasing her iconic rise amidst a career already marked by wild highs and relentless tabloid scrutiny. Not to be outdone, Eminem’s Encore delivered hits like "Just Lose It" and introspective tracks like "Like Toy Soldiers," though fans still debate its place in his discography. 🎤🔥
Rounding out the lineup, the Xbox hit Halo 2 took multiplayer gaming to a whole new level with groundbreaking online matchmaking that influenced eSports for years to come.
Hang with us on socials to chat more noughties nostalgia - Facebook (@tminus20) or Instagram (tminus20podcast). You can also contact us there if you want to be a part of the show.
Transcript is generated automatically.
The year is 2004. Your polyphonic ringtone habit is sending you broke. George W Bush is sworn in for a second term, and in spite of everything going on, the most controversial thing is a wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl. T -, 20 rewind 20 years with Joe and Mel.
07 November 2004.
T minus.
The rest is history.
You know what? I'm very forgetful 20. Hello.
There. Stop trying to make fetch happen.
What are we? Waiting for this is harder than I thought it would be. My fellow Americans.
Let's roll.
Ohh hi there. If this is your first time welcome this is a little podcast that we do called t -, 20 which talks about everything that happened in news and popular culture this time 20 years ago. Some would say that it would fit in the history or politics and. Political science category. We those people would be very, very wrong. It's just an irreverent take on what happened this time 20 years ago with your host Joe and Mel, who actually lived through it. We have lived.
Experience. Hello, Mel. Yes, it is a hot take and we're hot taking November. Can you believe it's November? Be Christmas before you know.
I know, I know. And we're old. We are old because we're all starting to talk about where has the year gone.
It.
Ohh, it's just flown by 17 to 13 November 2004 is what we're.
Talking about the fire team crosses the street.
The.
Going to hit the insurgents. With an anti tank missile.
They are going to hit those insurgents in Fallujah with more than anti tank missiles. The war in Iraq was raging on this time 20 years ago and a huge battle took place this week, 20 years ago.
Why don't they just?
Leave Britney alone except.
Al goal. Yes, she had a big album release this week in 2004.
I got times in the problem. I gotta.
And we got tabs in the browser.
We've officially got tabs in the browser, yes, with a tech development, and we might check in on the tabs. Everyone go check how many tabs you've got in your browser, do a tab check.
Yeah.
For sure this it gave Google a run for its. Money, this one? Sure. Everyone was very excited. Well, anyone who didn't have a life was probably very excited.
Or anyone who likes Netscape Navigator.
Yeah, there there was a new thing on the computer too. A new thing on the computer. So we're going to talk about a new thing that happened on the computer in 2004. Your alarms going off on your computer.
Well, it's was excited by this news. Good stuff.
Yes, my computer's telling me it's time to post the socials, but I've already.
That's the.
Done it for today, alright.
That's the computer that you put in your pocket.
That's the little computer and Gen Z or Gen Z. Yeah, you know how they've got problems with everything. They're always like bagging out millennials and rumours they tend to leave genex alone. So I probably shouldn't.
Ohh man. Yeah, cause they're scared of us because we used to be out on the street.
Draw attention to it. Lived experience? Yes, till the lights came on, we babysat ourselves. We bought cigarettes for our parents when we're 5.
It it it at night time and things like that, exactly we did. We were latch pinkies. That's it. We were given a note from our parents and 10 bucks and we'd go down the shops and buy a packet of Marlboros for them. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, no problem. No problem at all. Apparently Gen Z is making fun of us all because we don't buy big ticket items on our phones. We use the big computer, AKA the House Computer, for big ticket purchases, always using a desktop. Anyone who is apparently.
Ohh really? We used to.
Older than Gen Z or Gen. Z Yeah is doing that.
Do you? Yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you, do you? I do. Sometimes. It depends.
I do absolutely anything over anything over $20.
Really, you still use the house computer. You know what? I don't do it anymore. I used to. I do it less and less and and now it's just more about convenience. Because the way that we are pushed to purchase stuff, it's just immediate.
Is a. Jobby yeah.
Easy, you know? So like, every time you advertise something on social media, it's like ohh like that, I'll go and click the link and buy that even to the point. Now where on socials if you do click like a learn more button, the first thing they do is ask you to auto fill your contact details your information so they can spam you with more.
Hmm.
Ah.
Since then?
No, I still move myself to the the House computer and it's a good way to stop the impulse buying, because if I can't be asked to get up to go to the house computer, then I don't make the purchase. It works well. I also use the House computer for serious emails. You know, you've got to send the serious email like.
Yeah.
Hmm.
It's not worth. Ohh yeah, I definitely do that. Yep, Yep, Yep.
You. Writing a complaint. At a company or something like that, because chances are, if you're on your on your phone and you're using old thumb. Though you have a typo and you never wanna typo in a stern email.
Yeah. Not in a complaint letter. Use.
You need the full querty experience, don't you? Yeah.
Exactly the full. Yeah, it just loses all its power if you if you do a complaint, letter, a sternly worded email, and it's got a typo in. It. Yeah. And and again, this is something that Gen Z would just be like or grammar Nazi. But it's important these things are important. You know, if if you weren't held to the standards that Jenna X have put forth and brought into society these days, you guys would all be finger painting with your own in the middle of the road. That's what you'd be doing.
They are. They're very important.
You know, we at least we have standards and we continue. We're proud of those standards and you should fear us because of those standards, really.
Hmm.
We smelled something wrong at school. We used to get. The ruler.
Exactly over the back of the knuckles or something. Yeah, that's right.
Alright, ear pull. I got my ear pulled. That was my clocks. But if I spell things wrong also got them all. Yeah.
Yeah. Look, I'm actually glad that doesn't happen these days. Now that I've got a child and he's in school. But I I do use the House computer for things like concert tickets, and I think a lot of people would have done that. I know that. Remember when Taylor Swift had her tickets on sale recently and people took half the day?
Yeah, probably for the.
Best.
Yes, yes.
Work to just join the Ticketek queue and wait until they can purchase tickets, but I find I find now that you know, I mean the the computer the house computer is not worth as much as the computer that we put in our pockets.
Yes. Yes.
Refresh. It's very true, but do you think? With the ticket purchases, the House computer has more success in getting through. Then, then the phone, then the device. Is there a reason?
Is that because it's connected with a LAN?
Cable because it's plugged into the WWW.
Because it's connected.
It's on the.
Local area network. Is that why? I.
Don't know, but remember the Rotary phone. Umm the one where you had to your finger would go around. They'd have to come back. So every time there was a nine in the phone would take forever to dial. I had way more luck winning radio station competitions where you had to be caller number. I'd call a #8 for the hot.
Dial and edit. And then you'd have to wait for it to come. It's yeah. Yes.
88 I had more luck with the Rotary phone because when we got the push button phone, because I used to win all the time with the Rotary phone, it must.
Yeah.
Then the push button.
No.
No way.
Have had to go back enough times that it was 8th in the queue where as soon as I got a push button.
Yeah.
Phone. Never won, never won. So maybe that's why you use the house computer. Maybe it's a similar thing for the.
Really.
Ticket purchase.
Well, I I still there's still value placed on the House computer as well. This is what I'm getting at like.
I know I'm always worried someones gonna break into my house and steal the house computer.
And you. Yet and yet with your phone, which is worth more than the House computer, that's a $2000 computer that you've got in your pocket with the camera on it and all your photos and your credit cards and all that sort of stuff. You flow that around, you take it to the gym, you leave it on the floor while you're.
Yes, yes.
Credit card details everything. Shove it on. The floor, yes.
Doing the. Exercises all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. Take it into the toilet. Well, I think. I think that's why people don't.
Take it into the toilet, drop it in. The. Yes.
Generally drop their phones. Into the toilet. I mean, if you drop your phone, it is a major thing, but it. And I feel like it's a rare occurrence. Having said that, I've probably jinxed myself, but I think it's because maybe Gen X's don't drop their phones. I'd like to see the statistics. There you go. That's that's some homework for all for our listeners who are our best researchers. If you can give me some data.
Is. You'd like a bit of data, bit of data to back it up.
On the the amount, the proportion of people based on their generation that drop their phones, you know because yeah.
Drop their phone into the toilet. I think there's a work around. I'm sure you know, like when you used to have the cords for your glasses. I'm sure there's some sort of chord where you could fashion around your neck and and hold your phone for for Gen X's.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This and that and if and if we're gonna feel a little bit more contemporary, they could make one out of neoprene like.
That's it.
That wet suit fabric. Ah, dear, Oh dear. We're so close to being boomers.
We are on the cusp.
We really are. We're on the cusp of being boomers, have to listen to us. There's so many people that would have been like from Gen Z that.
Of booming. Yeah, it's alright.
Would. Have like maybe got 2 seconds into that opener and just gone. I roll. I don't think this is for me, no.
It's not the podcast me I have reached that stage I've reached, but I think I've reached Boomer status because whenever something new happens now, I'm like, I'm not learning that.
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
I'm not learning that.
Of.
No.
I've come this far without having to learn that and I don't want to learn that well. You're gonna have to learn. Well, you might. You might have learned something back in the day. This is the hatches, matches and dispatches. Clue that we play that links to the segment that we do at the end of the show. It's a it's a famous person that was either born or died or got married this time 20 years ago this week.
Too hard?
Yeah, I'm not.
Looking.
They've got to dispatch somebody who pass. Passed away this time 20 years ago that said this.
Hmm.
We want to live to live in peace with all our neighbours, including including the Israelis.
Yeah, that's a very controversial figure that passed away this time 20 years ago. I reckon a lot of people will know who this is. We'll find out. Who it is at the end of the show though.
Over in the news on the 7th of November 2004, we had a pretty big development in the war in Iraq. The second Battle of Fallujah. AKA Operation Phantom Fury. The first battle happened a little earlier in 2004, and we did touch on it.
We did that was was that the that's the kind of thing that inspired the film Black Hawk Down, I think.
Earlier this year.
It was in response to the killing and mutilation and display of four American contractors. Remember the Blackwater contractors? And they hung them from the bridge and that triggered the first Battle of Fallujah from the 4th of April to the 1st of May.
Yes, that's right. They hung their bodies from the bridge. Yeah.
Day and the idea was well, it was in response to that mainly, but it aimed to retake control of Fallujah by clearing out the insurgents and foreign fighters, seizing weapons and basically reestablishing control over key routes like the Highway, Highway 10. However, resistance from insurgents.
Uh.
It's fierce. There was coordinated ambushes, it was getting pretty dicey. There was IED. These air strikes, urban combat and lots of destruction, lots of casualties, and it led to mounting opposition from within Iraq and internationally. So there was a lot of pressure on the interim government and the US agreed to halt the offensive and they withdrew from.
Yes, which was a I think was seen as a loss a a big loss for them and they weren't going to rest, I think until they went back in there, which is what they did in November 2004.
The first battle.
Hmm.
They but but at the time they turned over the security to the Fallujah Brigade, who weren't really very good at or successful with all their members siding with the insurgents and giving all their weapons to them. They're just like here you go. And if you look, there's some. I I saw a whole bunch of footage of the firefight in Fallujah for the the Second battle online and. The city is so dense and poorly planned, and there's it's just a maze of buildings and rooftops, and it's just and because.
Hmm.
The the enemy, I guess looks exactly the same as the civilians around there. It's really hard to differentiate. It was a very frustrating and tense environment. I mean, any kind of combat obviously frustrating and tense and. Intense. But this place was just, I think, hell for them to try and navigate in order to exert any kind of power or push out any kind of insurgents.
And so they get to late 2004 and the deteriorating situation there was there was ongoing. Tax so the interim government actually requested renewed US assistance to help stabilise the city.
Yeah. And they had to because the Fallujah Brigade gave all their firearms to the insurgents and decided to join them.
Coalition forces, in coordination with Iraqi troops, launched the Second Battle of Fallujah on November 7, 2004, and with the aim of recapturing the city and eliminating the entrenched insurgency, it was led by a coalition of US. Iraqi British forces lasted till December 2004. Was one of the largest and fiercest battles of the Iraq. War, in fact.
Yeah, it's, it's the stuff of legend these days, I guess. Have a listen. I've got some. Just a brief snippet of of some stuff from a news crew that were embedded with some of the military there and some of the audio is a bit sketchy, but it's still really worth listening to. So just. Feast your ears on this.
The fireteam crosses the street.
Let's get out of this target.
No.
They're going to hit the insurgents. With an anti tank missile.
What's gonna happen? And sixteens 240. We're gonna pop up. Going to do 5 seconds of suppression, alright, slowing on sixteens like 2 bursts that way Cole Pelton is going to show me where the fires come from and I can look at the building. Alright, that's you and you ready. Get a hose up.
From a safer rooftop, we filmed the tanks moving along the street, ready to fire around into each house where there might still be resistance.
They don't want to give up. Try talking with our walk on the street.
What?
How matter of fact is he like the Audio's? A bit dodgy on that, but just like they said, they'd rather die than surrender. So they're gonna die. Like and the and and the tank is rolling up door to door. Imagine a tank rolling down your street, right and it points its cannon at your house and just fires a shell into your house. A massive shell into your house. Like what hope do you have? But these insurgents, they were stubborn. They dug their heels in.
Hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
And as a consequence, I think they had about 10,000 U.S. troops in them, 2000 Iraqi troops in there with the US troops trying to help them. And they are. They are up against 3000 insurgents, so 12,000 troops against 3000 insurgents. They had tanks. Like we said, air support that what they were talking about with the suppressing fire with the M Sixteens was just so that they could stick their head up on the rooftop and see the building that they were firing the RPG's from at them so that they could in turn. Fire and anti tank ground at the now the the anti tank round wasn't going for a tank, it was just going for a bunch of dudes in a building. It's it and it was. It was a dirty dirty fight like they were just going through each neighbourhood trying to clear it out street by street by St.
It caused significant displacement because there were a lot of civilians that did evacuate before the assaults. There was widespread destruction with a lot of the city's infrastructure heavily damaged. It was declared a military success, with Fallujah captured by coalition forces. However, it came at a really high cost. It was.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the bloodiest battles within the Iraq war. Some 110 coalition forces were killed, 600 wounded, 3000 and surgeons were killed or captured, which sounds like the total number that they started with. But when you add the two battles, so the one that happened earlier in 2004, when you add them together, U.S. forces suffered 151 dead and more than 1000. Wounded, which was actually the greatest number of US casualties since the Vietnam War.
Yeah, and this this is after Bush has just got reelected too. So one.
Yeah, couple of weeks.
This again, but it's all spins back around and people start asking a lot of questions as to why they're over there and they really were saying that Iraq was their modern day, Vietnam at the time the the there was a lot of criticism with regards to the tactics that the Americans used as well in particular. There's a weapon that they had called white phosphorus, which they drop. It's similar to napalm, I guess. So if it comes into contact with you or your skin, it basically melts. It's. Yeah, it's it's hideous. Lots of civilian casualties as a result of.
Chemical warfare.
That it being fought in basically the suburbs throughout the city, you know, so the they reckon that there were thousands of civilians that died in Fallujah, the the collateral damage was huge. By the end of 2004, more than 40% of the city was ruined. Dozens of mosques is because that's where the insurgents.
Hmm.
And hide out and and cache their weapons. They were all destroyed and it was just a very bloody and messy battle. And it it's funny because, well, it's not funny, but it's it's interesting because.
Hmm.
Is. The way that the media portrays war, I think it it's even with the footage that I was watching and I have to say, like I've been, you know, you and I've been talking about like dopamine out outside of the podcast and stuff and how we get our dopamine hits from our our devices like our. Phones or the House computer or or or like or purchasing something or having a drink or eating food or whatever. And the dopamine hit that I think you get from watching some of this footage cause it's like an action film played out in real life is is quite intense and it's, I don't know whether it's. It has the effect of making you think ohh that looks like hell on Earth or or whether it you think it looks like an action film, right and in 2009. A video game company called Konami announced plans for a tactical first person shooter game called 6 Days in Fallujah. Which was aiming to depict the events of the battle from a few different perspectives, including that of the Marines, the Iraqi soldiers and the civilians. And I've got a bit of the intro for that game.
Iraqi nationalists and Zarqawi's growing army seized control of Fallujah, just miles from the capital.
These terrorists were armed to the. Teeth. No one could fight against them.
For those are kind of like was pushing a lot of danger into the country, pumping, pumping like constantly pumping.
That was their safe zone. They they they go out and do stuff all over the country. If they can make it back to.
Flooded. They were safe. They had to be stopped, or the country will turn over to al Qaeda.
By October of 2004, Iraq's Prime Minister ordered civilians out of Fallujah, so Iraqi and coalition forces could retake the city.
We are determined to.
Clean Fallujah from terrorists. 90% of the population left the city, while thousands of insurgents turned it into a fortress early on November 9th, American and Iraqi troops entered Fallujah side by side.
Right.
The next six days would be among the bloodiest in half a century.
Yeah. Like you're sitting on the couch with your headset on in your hand control. And you're like. Let's go. And I guess you know, that could be the in the defence of the developers for this game. They researched this within inches of their lives. They really went to town.
Hmm.
They spoke to a whole bunch of Marines, soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and they worked very hard to make this game as visceral and as realistic as they possibly could from a combat perspective. At the very least. I mean, you're listening to it with the music and the big voice over and the the different accounts and it's like it's it's all designed again to give you that big dopamine hit before you're about to jump into the game and start shooting.
People, it was announced in 2009 and then was criticised for attempting to turn what was a horrible real world. Conflict into a form of entertainment, I guess.
Yes.
With detractors arguing that it really risked glorifying war and downplaying the suffering of the civilians throughout.
I think particularly with this one, because it was so close like it's it's a more recent battle, right?
And this is this is what, five years later that they make this announcement that they're making.
The game, yeah.
There was also. Accusations that the game could be acting as a bit of a recruitment tool for the. Military. Yeah. Which led Konami to actually cancel the project later in 2009 due to the backlash. However, it was revived in 2021 by high wire games and victory A with a focus on delivering what they said was an immersive but balanced experience.
Hmm. Yeah.
That's right. So you can actually play it now. I think it's well, early access on steam in 2023 and I think they're gonna expand it if they haven't already. I'm not sure. I haven't actively sought out this game. It that way but it and it still gets scrutinised that it might function as this recruitment tool. But I would argue that most of these sort of games probably do that like I am a huge Call of Duty fan and Call of Duty has taken a lot of liberties with certain wars, but they've done a World War One. They've done a World War 2, they've done a Vietnam War. Styles thing and they've got this Black Ops where they've done like all this stuff behind the Iron Curtain in the 80s. And yes, it's all fictitious characters, but it's sort of based on either real life events or pop culture at that particular time. And even the latest Call of Duty, which just dropped a couple of weeks ago, but.
Hmm.
Top six. That's actually set in the 90s. So like when you go and play Black Ops six, you are in Iraq and you are going through Saddam Hussein's palace and there are portraits of Hussein on the wall in. And I'm like ohh wow. Like, this is actually getting into my timeline as opposed to history.
Ohh wow.
Ah.
Yeah, Ross.
Which is basically all of these things that happened before I was. ****. But as a guy who is fast approaching middle age and likes doing things like watching The History Channel and smoking meat, I think that perhaps I I I do find it a little bit titillating to indulge in a video game that is based on a historical events or real life experience. Even though it is combat based and it's like it probably does, I don't know that it glorifies war, but it I mean, you know, like the one thing that all of these video games teach you, I think because you you stick your head out at the wrong time with all the bullets flying around in these video games and you are.
I think that's.
It and you just you. If you're smart, you put that into perspective and you go well, you know, I can respawn. OK, great in the game. But if this was real life, there's no respawning like that tiny little piece of metal, you know, ruptures your skin and goes through your body. And that's pretty much game over.
You're done. I think the argument, though, is that it's desensitising players.
Yes, absolutely.
For the realities of. War and that it's turning it into a game or entertainment as opposed. Do the atrocities of what goes on in these conflicts?
But you could argue that movies do the same thing. It's just that they're not as immersive.
You're you're not participating though watching.
Well, you're not. You're not. You're not pulling the trigger. You're just passively viewing things taking place. Yeah, and. And I guess movies can be visceral, and they can amplify the horror of such an experience. Or they can glorify it. Either way, when you're in the middle of the. Name. I mean it's play. I mean it's it's you're playing like.
Yeah.
It's your downtime. Whereas movies you probably you connect with the hero of the story, and if something terrible happens to them or their friends like you feel that. Whereas yeah, I think playing it is a little bit different. The developers have repeatedly denied though that it had any connection to military recruitment or propaganda. They said that six days in Fallujah.
Yeah, right.
An independently funded projects aimed at telling the personal stories of those involved in the battle, not advancing a Pro War narrative or anything to do with the US government, but. Critics remain sceptical, and they've even labelled it a broader trend called Mill attainment mill attainment, the use of entertainment to promote military values. And, like you say, they have had similar views around Call of Duty. There was actually a game called America's Army which was developed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
By the US Army as a recruitment tool so you can see why they are getting a little bit cynical and that game.
That's. Yeah. Well there. Go. There you go. Yeah.
The idea of it was to promote military values and attract young people to enlist. It was part of their broader recruitment strategy.
Well, I mean, if you keep, it's very clever. It's genius.
Which is clever. I don't know that I like it, but from a marketing point of view, yeah, that is, that is pretty like crazy because then you can start serving up advertising. Yeah. You can start pushing things in different ways through the game.
Well, I guess it's it's very it's very accessible. You can do it in the comfort of your own home. But I mean how is it any different to when you used to play wars as a kid and you'd run around pointing sticks at each other and shoot each other?
It's. Trevor.
You wouldn't have the military signing you up, though at that point in time, the military is actually present on Twitch and in E Sports tournaments.
No, no. Yes. Yes, and I I do find this very interesting.
And there's military branding as as part of that, they interact with players during live streams, there's competitive events.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And recruiters then connect with the demographic again, genius marketing. But I I don't know how I feel about it.
Well, there's still human casualties at the end of the of of warfare, you know? And I, it makes me think about what warfare is going to look like. And one thing that they they really don't talk about in the the six days of.
Nice.
In Fallujah and and and other things, other human casualties, right. But although there is a, there is a level that that was very controversial in Call of Duty. I I don't know if it was Black Ops. I think it might have been Modern Warfare which was called no Russian where you had to go. You were embedded undercover like your character in a terrorist group. And you had to go into an airport and mow people down. And it was it was a lot. It was very controversial at the time. It was, some people would argue that it was in poor taste. It certainly worked in very well with the narrative of the.
Hmm.
Story, but it actually it it put. This decision in the hands of the gamer, and it was like what do I do like and and I find that quite interesting as well. You know, I mean it it's only a video game. Yes, but.
Hmm. Wow. Yeah.
But do you stop and think about that? Do you do you have morals at that point and?
Well, I did. I did. I did. And then I still mowed him down. But but you did.
Go. I'm not doing that.
He did, but it does it there.
Gotta get high score.
Is a. There is a morality play there and I found that quite fascinating. But what I also find fascinating is what the future of warfare will look like. If this is the case. If they're using this for recruitment, and especially when you look at things like drones and drone technology and artificial intelligence and all of that sort of stuff. But you could argue that the military maybe.
Yes. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yep, Yep.
Are watching people who are involved in things like drone racing and stuff like that as well because they are, that's where they're gonna find their best pilots in the future. Pilots aren't gonna be sitting in the cockpit of an aeroplane. They're gonna be sitting in front of a computer, you know, in front of the house computer where the important transactions happen.
Yeah, potentially.
That's such a fitting segue into technology, isn't it, really?
Yes, this one was on the House computer 9th of November 2004, cause we didn't have computers on our. Phone at this stage, didn't we?
No, or the work computer. I mean, I didn't have a computer in the house. I had to go to work, to your computer.
The work, and that's probably the work computer.
Just dial up dialogue was just annoying because we started to have broadband at work, didn't we?
Yeah, that's that was.
Go and look up all the gossip sites. Yeah, an email forwarding the emails from your work email. You just spend all day forwarding emails.
Game changer. And then we had and then we had. Yes. Yes, and funny memes and dirty jokes and stuff before they're like any of that proper use policy.
The jokes, yeah, yes.
Stuff there. There was no. Yeah, there was no codes of conduct at my first. Job when there was.
Nice oyster sink.
Email no, I think we used to play who could send the most offensive email. So yeah, lucky that.
Yes.
Wasn't being monitored.
Yes, be like ohh hey, do you wanna have a look at Tupac's autopsy photo? Things like that, yes.
Ohh yes. Was.
Interesting, wasn't it? Rotten.com remember that?
And you could do it. You could do it even more efficiently now that Firefox has entered.
The chat you could you could add 2 park in one tab and who knows what in another.
In the browser I got I got tabs in the browser I got tabs. I got tabs in the browser. I got tab, I got tabs in the browser I got tabs.
Tab bars in my browser always crowded on the daily, always filled with some bull. Some articles I married. If you saw the way my windows looking call me crazy, I'll be spotting times like rabbits when they making. Maybe it's a maybe if you ask me if I ever planned. I told him never knowing if I.
Yeah.
Oh gosh, I feel that song so much.
Close your tabs now.
Should we do a quick tab?
Check.
How many tabs have you got open at the moment in your browser? 0 All my tabs are closed. Yeah, yeah.
How many tabs? Yeah. Hang on. How many have you got? No, really. You still closing them all? You. I haven't influenced you into keeping them.
Nope.
Oh, my times advised.
I have, so I think last time we. Spoke about this. I had about 50 and you were outraged.
Tabs yes.
Sitting at 72, it was 90, but because my.
Plus. I feel sick. I don't feel well. That makes me uncomfortable.
My gym programme, so my gym programme. I moved to the first tab so I could find it easily, right? I'm sick of trying to find it in amongst the other tabs, but I have this thing when I scroll through all the other tabs to get back up because I'll go and look at chat GBT's like halfway down the tabs or I'll look oh, there's that hair straightener. Goodbye.
Right. Yes. So do you wanna talk about dopamine again?
I keep it there because I need to buy a wheel for school, a spinny wheel, and I'm scared I won't be able to find it again. Oh, there's so. Well, it says my Lotto numbers anyway, I've got this thing where I'm swiping back to the top tab, which has my gym programme, but it might go too fast. Sometimes it closes some of them and I don't know which ones and then I get really stressed. I get real. I was like.
Yeah. Ohh. You get anxious because you're losing your treasure.
Because all of these are important to me, and so I've lost 18 along the way. I've lost 18 tabs along the way and I don't know which ones they are because I. Don't know them all. By heart, but I don't know what they.
But you can search, you can search them.
Were now, yeah.
Do you need them? What for?
Because they're they're important to me. There's that pizza I made. How good was that pizza? My favourite veggie pizza. And it had a game changer. It had almonds on.
So when the situation arises.
The top of it, it's just crunchy.
When was the last time you visited that tab?
Last time I made the pizza, but I'd like to, but again, look at the artichoke. It was delicious, it was delicious. And look at the photo. It's nice. It's it's statically pleasing. So when I scroll back up, I get hungry every time. There's that elliptical I want to buy, actually, I.
That's like over six months ago. Yes. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's yeah. It was a good. It was a good pizza. You can't like favourite it or just copy and paste it and email it to you. So look at you go could.
Think it's on sale?
You stop. We're doing a podcast.
Anyway, so 72 tabs I'm at. Lord Mist had hundreds.
Ohh Dan from IT. Yeah city really.
Hundreds and he's in IT. So I figure if he's got more tabs open than what?
OK.
I do, it's fine.
Well, you could do more of that on the 9th of November 2004, when Firefox 1.0 was released. Up until now, yes. Up until now. It's just in beta or beta or whatever you wanna call.
Hmm.
This is the fish, the official Firefox.
Yes, yes, this is the secure open source Alternative 2. At the time the the dominant search engine in the markets Internet Explorer.
How did we live?
Internet Explorer, which squashed Netscape navigator. I'm still upset about that.
Hmm hmm.
Quickly became very popular due to its improved speed customisation.
And tabs to.
Tag browsing. Yes, Internet Explorer didn't have tabs. It has an interesting origin rooted in the early open source movement we've touched on.
Hmm.
It before but. Look, any opportunity to openly weep over Netscape Navigator. I will take. So can we revisit?
Really, you just all just bent out of shape about losing Netscape Navigator?
I'm so upset because I, like I said, I still remember going into that computer lab at U. Me opening up and looking at that big ship steering wheel. Typing in Rochford.
And thinking, wow. Where's it gonna take me?
And getting 3 answers. Or maybe it was five. It was three or five. It was one of those two. It was just one page. Yeah, and I thought, what is this? What is this? This is the future.
Yeah.
See, I was more sad. Well, it is the future.
This information about Rochford on the school computer, the school computer.
And and and yes and yes, of course, Rochford. Lay your love on me, Roach, but and that was the OG. Absolutely. But but I I just wanna. I just wanna pull one out for ask Jeeves.
Yes, yes.
Special to me.
Because Jeeves was mine, Jeeves was my, my, my, my browser of choice, Ask Jeeves, my search engine of choice, not so much browser search, but I I liked the idea.
Pretty. Creepy. Yes, yes. If Daggy is Clippy.
Did he have his hands like that?
I liked the idea of having an indentured servant.
Was that?
Is. I don't even know if I've I've used the the word indentured properly there, but it made me sound good.
I just got a visual of some big teeth.
Yes, it's a big false teeth. No, I liked the idea of having a Butler, an Internet Butler that would go and fetch things for me.
No, I don't know. Busy. Yeah, you.
You didn't want to steer the ship yourself. You wanted someone else to.
Shall I go and fetch that for you? Do it. That's right. Yes. I don't need no Nets. I don't want to take the wheel. I'm like Jeeves, go get stuff and do things. I'm delegating. It's wonderful.
You don't take the wheel.
Firefox began as part of the Mozilla project, which was spun off from Netscape. It was the Netscape Peep.
Yeah.
To offer an alternative, because Internet Explorer basically killed off Netscape and it was developed under the code name Phoenix, which we've spoken to or spoken about. Sorry, as a nod to rising from the ashes of the dead Netscape Navigator.
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
It's you can't talk to a phoenix. It's too busy rising from the ashes.
It is, yes, I just love that the nerds weren't going to sit there. And take that.
Yes.
We're gonna. We're gonna mobilise. We're gonna rise from the ashes. We're gonna have a code name every time they put a code name. To something you know, it's gonna be good.
So it was a code name. Firefox.
No, it was Phoenix. It was Phoenix and I.
Ohh. That devolved into Firefox.
Well, I think when it came to releasing it, they didn't realise Phoenix trademarks trademarks.
Yes. But already been taken. That's right. I do remember we had a conversation about this some time ago. Yes, I know.
They got in trouble. I do. I do enjoy trademark laws? It was trademarked, so they went OK, well, we'll.
Nothing gets those juices flowing like trademark law. Woo. Yeah. Yes. I'm gonna send you a cease and desist. You need to calm down.
The idea behind Firefox as a browser that was lightweight, fast and secure, driven by a commitment to open web standards and user control, rejecting corporate monopolies on Internet access, and a focus on privacy and community driven innovation.
I love it.
Hmm.
As of October 2024, so roughly now today, the latest version of Firefox is Firefox 131.0.3.
Wow.
Which was released on the 14th of October 131. Yes, I looked that up and I said, does that mean that there's been?
Just last month, 130.
131. It just means that there's been that many updates, so it could be mine. It's not necessarily a major release, not like new tab functions. It could be. We've just.
Update it's updates, yeah. No, it could be like you know.
Changed this font.
Yeah, you read the notes and it's like a minor bug fixes and we change the yeah.
Bolted. We bolted this word over here.
We changed the font. Yeah, something like that.
I did once when I when I tapped in your browser.
More tabs give you more tabs.
Got tabs in the browser. I got tabs.
Yeah. Yes.
Tabs.
I remember when I made my first WordPress and I hooked it up to my LinkedIn and I didn't realise, but I'd set something up that every time the idea was every time I made a post it would notify all my LinkedIn contacts, but I'll still learning WordPress so I was like oh, I don't like the alignment of that.
Yeah.
So I'd go in and change the alignment of one word or I'd bold something. Ohh typo, I'd fix it up so every time I was ****** farting around in WordPress, all of my LinkedIn. Facts are like Mel's made a new post, so yes, my my WordPress would be up to like 500,000 and 31 fiddling. Yes. So I think that's what Firefox is doing is.
Ohh God sorry. Just from. Things see.
Just fiddling so that's.
Well, yes.
Why I got 231?
I think it was probably more meaningful than changing the kerning or you know.
That kerning is important.
Yeah, sure. Of course, of course.
And letting also important, let's do a comparison. Though 2004 and 2024. So 2004 Firefox had a basic minimalist design. Yeah, it focused on the.
I'd love to do a comparison.
Yep.
Tabs. No pop-ups. Yeah. Made it so much easier to search for ***********.
No pop ups and. Revolutionary at the time.
Well, cause that was the big killer, wasn't it? You know, in 2004, if you were on the Internet, you were looking for something.
You're getting ready for.
That.
40 You would get smashed with pop ups of things that you know you might have just been looking for. Something quite innocent, just some very basic missionary style stuff, right?
Hmm.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, but.
All of a sudden cause the Internet is what it is. You're seeing things that you never wanted to see or understand before in your life, and at least Firefox, we're like, hey, we'll come to the rescue. We'll block all those pop ups for you. You can get straight into that missionary stuff and just be your conservative.